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	<title>Comments on: Bear Raid? Let me tell you about bear raids. . .</title>
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		<title>By: Gem Hudson</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-2246</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gem Hudson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-2246</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This what happen when the fundamental trend line have a disconnected price line.  As long as the idiots do not know what they are stop ordering.  The bears are raiding.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This what happen when the fundamental trend line have a disconnected price line.  As long as the idiots do not know what they are stop ordering.  The bears are raiding.</p>
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		<title>By: Cassandra</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1867</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cassandra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Baruch, Yes, precisely. In the shorter term, however I believe it is nebulous as structural SNAFUs (short-covering histrionics by low-pain threshold investors and/or ongoing manipulation whether upon historical accounting - e.g. accruals- or rose-coloured forecast cause much performance dispersion and pain). Overstock is perhaps the perfect example as Rocker&amp;Cohodes suffered repeatedly from all of the above before &quot;being right&quot;, or at least vindicated by the market price of their position.

We don;t have different defs. I was merely highlighting that &quot;the market&quot; and &quot;the perps&quot; are getting harder to distinguish, with the only one&#039;s knowing for certain are the prime broker(s), one&#039;s  administrator, one&#039;s auditor, and the plunger-perp himself. 

I would agree that the classical bear-raid is an art form, but in modernity, there are increasingly more mechanistic chain-like-reactions that can be discovered that are more similar to the classical in result than not.  One can see examples of this at the micro-structure level where algorithms duel with each other to lower bids, spoof offers, canceling and replaceing bids in replies to others in a financial whirling-dervish dance that is as wondrous and absorbing to watch as ant colony&#039;s at work. CXO has a compendium of summaries on short research until I gather my links for you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baruch, Yes, precisely. In the shorter term, however I believe it is nebulous as structural SNAFUs (short-covering histrionics by low-pain threshold investors and/or ongoing manipulation whether upon historical accounting &#8211; e.g. accruals- or rose-coloured forecast cause much performance dispersion and pain). Overstock is perhaps the perfect example as Rocker&amp;Cohodes suffered repeatedly from all of the above before &#8220;being right&#8221;, or at least vindicated by the market price of their position.</p>
<p>We don;t have different defs. I was merely highlighting that &#8220;the market&#8221; and &#8220;the perps&#8221; are getting harder to distinguish, with the only one&#8217;s knowing for certain are the prime broker(s), one&#8217;s  administrator, one&#8217;s auditor, and the plunger-perp himself. </p>
<p>I would agree that the classical bear-raid is an art form, but in modernity, there are increasingly more mechanistic chain-like-reactions that can be discovered that are more similar to the classical in result than not.  One can see examples of this at the micro-structure level where algorithms duel with each other to lower bids, spoof offers, canceling and replaceing bids in replies to others in a financial whirling-dervish dance that is as wondrous and absorbing to watch as ant colony&#8217;s at work. CXO has a compendium of summaries on short research until I gather my links for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cassandra, do you mean stocks with high levels of short interest tend to underperform over the the medium to long term?

Also we may have different definitions of bear raid -- you seem to be describing occasions when a lot of shorts and sellers independently glom onto stocks, generally on bad news. For me a bear raid has to have some sort of narrower, collusive conspiracy angle to it, preferably without any actual news triggering the selloff.

Of course, if the conspirators can manufacture some actual news in collusion with a competitor, regulator, or more likely a friendly broker, all the better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cassandra, do you mean stocks with high levels of short interest tend to underperform over the the medium to long term?</p>
<p>Also we may have different definitions of bear raid &#8212; you seem to be describing occasions when a lot of shorts and sellers independently glom onto stocks, generally on bad news. For me a bear raid has to have some sort of narrower, collusive conspiracy angle to it, preferably without any actual news triggering the selloff.</p>
<p>Of course, if the conspirators can manufacture some actual news in collusion with a competitor, regulator, or more likely a friendly broker, all the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Puntino</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Puntino]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is embarassingly ivory tower is that, as far as I can see, the company they use as an example, Medizone, is a penny stock, total market cap $ 5m on a good day.

Wish I&#039;d gone to Cambridge now.

Cassandra, can you link to the academic research which shows short sellers generate excess returns? Seems slightly counter-intuitive when most OECD markets have been rising for the past 25 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is embarassingly ivory tower is that, as far as I can see, the company they use as an example, Medizone, is a penny stock, total market cap $ 5m on a good day.</p>
<p>Wish I&#8217;d gone to Cambridge now.</p>
<p>Cassandra, can you link to the academic research which shows short sellers generate excess returns? Seems slightly counter-intuitive when most OECD markets have been rising for the past 25 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Cassandra</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cassandra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The concept of the &quot;corporate broker&quot; is foreign in the USA. 

The changing market structure (electronic anonymity, dark pools &amp; crossing networks)  has made the understanding of flow far more diffficult. Even large-holder filings can be skirted or are least delayed, all which works to the plungers&#039; advanatge.

Even in the absence of technical stops, there are clearly times and places where sentiment,  soon-to-emerge technical positions (feedback traders), potential supply from holders, exogenuous conditions, yield a an overly-pregnant situation that takes but the gentlest of nudges to get the stone rolling.  

Systematic strategies such earnings revision, earnings &amp; price momentum, analyst recommend chgs  and policy reactions (busted growth) are playing an increasing role in reinforcement of bear-raid-like strategies.  While not the classical BearStearns/HBOS bear-raid, these former are far more prevalent, with similar outcomes.

Most academic research has shown short-sellers (represented by measures of short-interest) generate excess returns over the medium to longer-term, and some recent work ferrets out subsequent news flow to posit they [shorts] possess informational advantage (better research?) if not material non-public information.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concept of the &#8220;corporate broker&#8221; is foreign in the USA. </p>
<p>The changing market structure (electronic anonymity, dark pools &amp; crossing networks)  has made the understanding of flow far more diffficult. Even large-holder filings can be skirted or are least delayed, all which works to the plungers&#8217; advanatge.</p>
<p>Even in the absence of technical stops, there are clearly times and places where sentiment,  soon-to-emerge technical positions (feedback traders), potential supply from holders, exogenuous conditions, yield a an overly-pregnant situation that takes but the gentlest of nudges to get the stone rolling.  </p>
<p>Systematic strategies such earnings revision, earnings &amp; price momentum, analyst recommend chgs  and policy reactions (busted growth) are playing an increasing role in reinforcement of bear-raid-like strategies.  While not the classical BearStearns/HBOS bear-raid, these former are far more prevalent, with similar outcomes.</p>
<p>Most academic research has shown short-sellers (represented by measures of short-interest) generate excess returns over the medium to longer-term, and some recent work ferrets out subsequent news flow to posit they [shorts] possess informational advantage (better research?) if not material non-public information.</p>
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		<title>By: Head Pig</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1863</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Head Pig]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great read. Wonder how Patrick Byrne of Overstock would comment? :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great read. Wonder how Patrick Byrne of Overstock would comment? :)</p>
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		<title>By: baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1862</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks David, coming from you that means a lot. Thanks also for the link.

Reading (or rather trying to read) the article was a bit of a shock. It&#039;s a bit like the economist joke about a physicist, biologist and economist on a desert island with an unopened can of beans. The economist&#039;s solution is to &quot;posit a can opener&quot;.

These guys seem so far removed from the real world, it&#039;s shocking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks David, coming from you that means a lot. Thanks also for the link.</p>
<p>Reading (or rather trying to read) the article was a bit of a shock. It&#8217;s a bit like the economist joke about a physicist, biologist and economist on a desert island with an unopened can of beans. The economist&#8217;s solution is to &#8220;posit a can opener&#8221;.</p>
<p>These guys seem so far removed from the real world, it&#8217;s shocking.</p>
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		<title>By: David Merkel</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2008/04/21/bear-raid-let-me-tell-you-about-bear-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-1861</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Merkel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.wordpress.com/?p=162#comment-1861</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve written about shorting issues before, but not as eloquently.  Good post.

http://alephblog.com/?p=636

PS -- you can find a draft of the paper here for free:

http://www.restud.com/uploads/papers/MS-9510-2-submission.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve written about shorting issues before, but not as eloquently.  Good post.</p>
<p><a href="http://alephblog.com/?p=636" rel="nofollow">http://alephblog.com/?p=636</a></p>
<p>PS &#8212; you can find a draft of the paper here for free:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.restud.com/uploads/papers/MS-9510-2-submission.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.restud.com/uploads/papers/MS-9510-2-submission.pdf</a></p>
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