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	<title>Comments on: Spend it quickly.</title>
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		<title>By: Comrade de Chaos</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-4122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Comrade de Chaos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 22:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-4122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am still in neither inflation or deflation camp. There are just too many variables at the play right now. However, there might be one weak spot in your analysis. Can you trust the information that comes out of the &quot;Politburo&quot; statistical office? Do majority of Chinese people have any substantial savings by the western standards? And given the huge uncertainty of tomorrow, will they spend money now? Besides it seems that Chinese are doing everything wrong with their bailout. They are putting money into the supply side rather than demand side, which in turns could make overproduction threat all too real.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am still in neither inflation or deflation camp. There are just too many variables at the play right now. However, there might be one weak spot in your analysis. Can you trust the information that comes out of the &#8220;Politburo&#8221; statistical office? Do majority of Chinese people have any substantial savings by the western standards? And given the huge uncertainty of tomorrow, will they spend money now? Besides it seems that Chinese are doing everything wrong with their bailout. They are putting money into the supply side rather than demand side, which in turns could make overproduction threat all too real.</p>
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		<title>By: baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3957</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Willo, I think I agree with every single one of your points, except I have learned to not be surprised at how pragmatic the Chinese can be. I am really very impressed with how they have played the last 10 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Willo, I think I agree with every single one of your points, except I have learned to not be surprised at how pragmatic the Chinese can be. I am really very impressed with how they have played the last 10 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3955</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3955</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MPO, why do you think I am taking a swipe at the use of capital in the US? I am not making any value judgements at all, merely trying to think in ways that might make me money. re China, you are right about over-investment possibly causing a bubble, I think.

Decoupling, actually I think that in many ways in industrial policy in general, China can act &quot;monolithically&quot;. Also note that the Chinese operators in many cases lease their networks; they don&#039;t own them outright. The actual owner of the network is another, more shadowy entity.

Essentially the return on capital of any project depends on the opportunity cost of that capital which is what we encapsulate in the discount rate for that project. China is going to lose a lot of that money through inflation if it just leaves it there; the opportunity cost for spending it is very low, therefore the threshold for investing it is too. Money is cheap in China!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MPO, why do you think I am taking a swipe at the use of capital in the US? I am not making any value judgements at all, merely trying to think in ways that might make me money. re China, you are right about over-investment possibly causing a bubble, I think.</p>
<p>Decoupling, actually I think that in many ways in industrial policy in general, China can act &#8220;monolithically&#8221;. Also note that the Chinese operators in many cases lease their networks; they don&#8217;t own them outright. The actual owner of the network is another, more shadowy entity.</p>
<p>Essentially the return on capital of any project depends on the opportunity cost of that capital which is what we encapsulate in the discount rate for that project. China is going to lose a lot of that money through inflation if it just leaves it there; the opportunity cost for spending it is very low, therefore the threshold for investing it is too. Money is cheap in China!</p>
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		<title>By: Willo89</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3954</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Willo89]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi,

I am openly ignorant of the finer details of economics but pose the following thoughts –
1.	The population of Europe is around 591 million, the population of China is around 1.31 billion (Wolfram Alpha). Given that China’s population is 2.2 times that of Europe, and they are trying very hard to rapidly become a (if not the) leading world economy then this sort of spend does not look so silly. I grant you that their wealth distribution is ridiculously skewed and that vast (major proportion) numbers of the population still live in agrarian poverty but the Chinese are doing all they can to move their economy through 100 years of development in as short as time as possible. One way to do this is to spend on core infrastructure required for the 21st Century, and IT and the ‘knowledge economy’ that goes with it is critical for a move away from manufacturing to higher value added competitiveness. 
 
2.	 My comments above make me think of the opening up of the US, and the building of railroads. Sure – possibly far too many were built; many companies went bust, but that infrastructure risk and leap was critical for opening up frontiers and provided an infrastructure that still exists today. 

3.	The Chinese are ‘in a hurry’ because their economy that has garnered some considerable wealth from the folly of the West and they know they need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to ensure that this no flash in the pan. In my view, they know they are in a very precarious position, and need basic infrastructures of health, education, roads, social security and technology etc because their people have tasted success and like it.

4.	IMHO – Issues like the promotion of clean energy, and of high tech infrastructure – all of which are being promoted in the West, makes eminent sense, because, unlike the in the West, you do not have to rip out or replace old infrastructures – you just leap frog to the newest one – which is far cheaper.

5.	Currently China appears to be very pragmatic, which constantly surprises me, but we have yet to see how the Chinese population or their masters deal with this transition as it gathers pace. Paraphrasing the reputed Chinese proverb – “We live in interesting times”!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I am openly ignorant of the finer details of economics but pose the following thoughts –<br />
1.	The population of Europe is around 591 million, the population of China is around 1.31 billion (Wolfram Alpha). Given that China’s population is 2.2 times that of Europe, and they are trying very hard to rapidly become a (if not the) leading world economy then this sort of spend does not look so silly. I grant you that their wealth distribution is ridiculously skewed and that vast (major proportion) numbers of the population still live in agrarian poverty but the Chinese are doing all they can to move their economy through 100 years of development in as short as time as possible. One way to do this is to spend on core infrastructure required for the 21st Century, and IT and the ‘knowledge economy’ that goes with it is critical for a move away from manufacturing to higher value added competitiveness. </p>
<p>2.	 My comments above make me think of the opening up of the US, and the building of railroads. Sure – possibly far too many were built; many companies went bust, but that infrastructure risk and leap was critical for opening up frontiers and provided an infrastructure that still exists today. </p>
<p>3.	The Chinese are ‘in a hurry’ because their economy that has garnered some considerable wealth from the folly of the West and they know they need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to ensure that this no flash in the pan. In my view, they know they are in a very precarious position, and need basic infrastructures of health, education, roads, social security and technology etc because their people have tasted success and like it.</p>
<p>4.	IMHO – Issues like the promotion of clean energy, and of high tech infrastructure – all of which are being promoted in the West, makes eminent sense, because, unlike the in the West, you do not have to rip out or replace old infrastructures – you just leap frog to the newest one – which is far cheaper.</p>
<p>5.	Currently China appears to be very pragmatic, which constantly surprises me, but we have yet to see how the Chinese population or their masters deal with this transition as it gathers pace. Paraphrasing the reputed Chinese proverb – “We live in interesting times”!</p>
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		<title>By: MPO</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3945</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MPO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;While this level of ramp-up is overkill, this is a better use of money than causing stock and real estate bubbles or paying financial industry bonuses.&quot;

There&#039;s no hard law on this.  Over-investment is over-investment, and a bubble is a bubble.  One case may see more efficient use of capital within a narrow range, but in the end you&#039;ve still got a bubble.  Besides, your comment seems more to be a swipe at America&#039;s use of capital, and it&#039;s hardly the case that China is not in the process of creating its own real estate bubble (or numerous other bubbles) with its policies, or that the Chinese are not in myriad other ways throwing money at people - individuals and groups of individuals - who are in reality drains on a market economy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;While this level of ramp-up is overkill, this is a better use of money than causing stock and real estate bubbles or paying financial industry bonuses.&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no hard law on this.  Over-investment is over-investment, and a bubble is a bubble.  One case may see more efficient use of capital within a narrow range, but in the end you&#8217;ve still got a bubble.  Besides, your comment seems more to be a swipe at America&#8217;s use of capital, and it&#8217;s hardly the case that China is not in the process of creating its own real estate bubble (or numerous other bubbles) with its policies, or that the Chinese are not in myriad other ways throwing money at people &#8211; individuals and groups of individuals &#8211; who are in reality drains on a market economy.</p>
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		<title>By: decoupling  deja vu etc etc</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3943</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[decoupling  deja vu etc etc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This story is the same as last year , when the immense potential of the Chinese domestic demand was supposed to save the world:This didn&#039;t happen of course.
Now the new story is that they will replace paper wealth with physical stuff.
Nice idea , but if physical stuff will be left to rust then that&#039;s not a great trade either.

Hence your insight on the current trade by the Chinese is essentially based on the latent assumption that all this stuff ( 3G, coal an copper inventories at highest levels ever, solar power) will be used up by the domestic Chinese demand: So we are back to June 2008 , with oil above $100, and people with wild eyes looking at China.

A final point to make is the assumption that &quot;China&quot; is one monolithic thing out there.
But think of this : If the 3G network stays underutilised for 2, 3 or even 10 years, while the $ collapses , how will the reserve manager that &quot;avoided &quot; the $ collapse and therefore benefited in terms of money and prestige  pay the 3G investor that will have suffered horrible returns for all these years?
Moreover,  how you convince ex ante the 3G investor to built this super duper network  just to hedge the risk that the $ collapses.
I don&#039;t think that anybody , even a Chinese semi-state entity makes investment decisions in such a way.

Expected Chinese demand drives investment , and investors have to gauge if this demand will materialise and if profits will be made.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This story is the same as last year , when the immense potential of the Chinese domestic demand was supposed to save the world:This didn&#8217;t happen of course.<br />
Now the new story is that they will replace paper wealth with physical stuff.<br />
Nice idea , but if physical stuff will be left to rust then that&#8217;s not a great trade either.</p>
<p>Hence your insight on the current trade by the Chinese is essentially based on the latent assumption that all this stuff ( 3G, coal an copper inventories at highest levels ever, solar power) will be used up by the domestic Chinese demand: So we are back to June 2008 , with oil above $100, and people with wild eyes looking at China.</p>
<p>A final point to make is the assumption that &#8220;China&#8221; is one monolithic thing out there.<br />
But think of this : If the 3G network stays underutilised for 2, 3 or even 10 years, while the $ collapses , how will the reserve manager that &#8220;avoided &#8221; the $ collapse and therefore benefited in terms of money and prestige  pay the 3G investor that will have suffered horrible returns for all these years?<br />
Moreover,  how you convince ex ante the 3G investor to built this super duper network  just to hedge the risk that the $ collapses.<br />
I don&#8217;t think that anybody , even a Chinese semi-state entity makes investment decisions in such a way.</p>
<p>Expected Chinese demand drives investment , and investors have to gauge if this demand will materialise and if profits will be made.</p>
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		<title>By: baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3942</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[yorks, you might think that. I couldn&#039;t possibly comment; while Baruch may own those names, UB is not a dodgy tipsheet for stock plungers. You are right of course, though I think the Chinese guys are also getting a fair share.

LY you make my point. But there are other benefits to the Brewster&#039;s Trillion gambit too, notably a reversal of the trade imbalance as you buy up equipment from overseas (see yorks above on who is actually benefitting).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yorks, you might think that. I couldn&#8217;t possibly comment; while Baruch may own those names, UB is not a dodgy tipsheet for stock plungers. You are right of course, though I think the Chinese guys are also getting a fair share.</p>
<p>LY you make my point. But there are other benefits to the Brewster&#8217;s Trillion gambit too, notably a reversal of the trade imbalance as you buy up equipment from overseas (see yorks above on who is actually benefitting).</p>
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		<title>By: LY</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LY]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lots of things don&#039;t make financial sense, like clean water, clean air, rural electrification, R&amp;D...

Cell phones and internet access have entered the category of economic need.   Technology road maps and standards for the next decade indicate a long life for 3G UMTS WCDMA and LTE.  While this level of ramp-up is overkill, this is a better use of money than causing stock and real estate bubbles or paying financial industry bonuses.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of things don&#8217;t make financial sense, like clean water, clean air, rural electrification, R&amp;D&#8230;</p>
<p>Cell phones and internet access have entered the category of economic need.   Technology road maps and standards for the next decade indicate a long life for 3G UMTS WCDMA and LTE.  While this level of ramp-up is overkill, this is a better use of money than causing stock and real estate bubbles or paying financial industry bonuses.</p>
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		<title>By: yorksranter</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yorksranter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And they&#039;re buying those Node-Bs from....ALCATEL-LUCENT AND ERICSSON. Not Huawei or ZTE and certainly not Motorola or Nortel. We weren&#039;t expecting that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And they&#8217;re buying those Node-Bs from&#8230;.ALCATEL-LUCENT AND ERICSSON. Not Huawei or ZTE and certainly not Motorola or Nortel. We weren&#8217;t expecting that.</p>
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		<title>By: baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, Tom Friedman and Baruch are different in too many ways to count. Baruch&#039;s moustache is waxed and curly at the ends. Friedman&#039;s is more of a beer strainer.

You could view China&#039;s accumulation of natural resources as a push for national greatness or independence at least. But one could also view it as a preparation for a coming global inflation they know to be inevitable. After all, commodities and real assets are very good inflation hedges. 

Inflation and devaluation are not accounting gimmicks, but you may not be referring to that, Alan. Can you elaborate?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Tom Friedman and Baruch are different in too many ways to count. Baruch&#8217;s moustache is waxed and curly at the ends. Friedman&#8217;s is more of a beer strainer.</p>
<p>You could view China&#8217;s accumulation of natural resources as a push for national greatness or independence at least. But one could also view it as a preparation for a coming global inflation they know to be inevitable. After all, commodities and real assets are very good inflation hedges. </p>
<p>Inflation and devaluation are not accounting gimmicks, but you may not be referring to that, Alan. Can you elaborate?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Murdock</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/06/08/spend-it-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-3931</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Murdock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=422#comment-3931</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What if accounting gimmicks were regarded as incidental, and the objective was to acquire resources required for the nation to determine its own destiny?

 Is Baruch AKA Tom Friedman?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if accounting gimmicks were regarded as incidental, and the objective was to acquire resources required for the nation to determine its own destiny?</p>
<p> Is Baruch AKA Tom Friedman?</p>
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