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	<title>Comments on: $1.3 million lost in blatant but failed attempt at insider trading?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/</link>
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		<title>By: Plebian</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5246</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Plebian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5246</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I doubt you&#039;d get as much attention as this trade has if you coated yourself in Vegemite and stood on Oxford Street on a Saturday night.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt you&#8217;d get as much attention as this trade has if you coated yourself in Vegemite and stood on Oxford Street on a Saturday night.</p>
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		<title>By: Anal_yst</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5245</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anal_yst]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just checked with wirehouseesque broker, scope this mindf*ck:

 800,000 shares @ $5.60/share * wirehouse commission $0.111/share = $89,000 gross commission.

Options: 8000 options, avg cost $0.75: $42,000 cost.

I&#039;m not sure what it&#039;d look like with Interactive Brokers or someone on that level, but if its an insider, a naive one at that, chances are they could very-well be with a wirehouse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just checked with wirehouseesque broker, scope this mindf*ck:</p>
<p> 800,000 shares @ $5.60/share * wirehouse commission $0.111/share = $89,000 gross commission.</p>
<p>Options: 8000 options, avg cost $0.75: $42,000 cost.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what it&#8217;d look like with Interactive Brokers or someone on that level, but if its an insider, a naive one at that, chances are they could very-well be with a wirehouse.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Anal, you may be right. I really didn&#039;t think of commissions impacting the portfolio decisions of the evil-doing inside trader. I could add that investing in options may be mostly commission-free, but the bid-offer spreads in many issues is about 5c on total premia of less than $1 per option. That would normally eat into returns, but of course if you were onto a sure thing in the COMS takeover, why would you care?

It was 800 THOUSAND shares, by the way. Not 800 MILLION. Last I looked COMS only has about 390m shares outstanding. $100m in commission on one trade would probably make a retail broker quite happy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Anal, you may be right. I really didn&#8217;t think of commissions impacting the portfolio decisions of the evil-doing inside trader. I could add that investing in options may be mostly commission-free, but the bid-offer spreads in many issues is about 5c on total premia of less than $1 per option. That would normally eat into returns, but of course if you were onto a sure thing in the COMS takeover, why would you care?</p>
<p>It was 800 THOUSAND shares, by the way. Not 800 MILLION. Last I looked COMS only has about 390m shares outstanding. $100m in commission on one trade would probably make a retail broker quite happy.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5243</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5243</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pleb, assuming you are indeed one of Baruch&#039;s more povvie readers, I can only urge you to do your insider trading using pure option premium. You will indeed get more bang for your buck on a percantage basis. But if you are even an only moderately well heeled punter you have to have an eye on the liquidity of the option, and its the absolute amount of money you can make that will interest you. Again, we&#039;re talking 800k shares here, and buying that amount of stock at a pre-takeout price of, say, $5.60, would mean an investment of $4.5m.

You simply wouldn&#039;t find anyone who is going to write you $4.5m worth of premium in at the money COMS options. There is a limit to the absolute amount of money you can make with options which is limited by their liquidity. If you have lots of capital you need to make a return on, in a world free of ludic fallacies, it simply makes more sense to play the underlying stock.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pleb, assuming you are indeed one of Baruch&#8217;s more povvie readers, I can only urge you to do your insider trading using pure option premium. You will indeed get more bang for your buck on a percantage basis. But if you are even an only moderately well heeled punter you have to have an eye on the liquidity of the option, and its the absolute amount of money you can make that will interest you. Again, we&#8217;re talking 800k shares here, and buying that amount of stock at a pre-takeout price of, say, $5.60, would mean an investment of $4.5m.</p>
<p>You simply wouldn&#8217;t find anyone who is going to write you $4.5m worth of premium in at the money COMS options. There is a limit to the absolute amount of money you can make with options which is limited by their liquidity. If you have lots of capital you need to make a return on, in a world free of ludic fallacies, it simply makes more sense to play the underlying stock.</p>
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		<title>By: Anal_yst</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5242</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anal_yst]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While hardly an expert here, methinks we should consider commissions here.  If this were some piss-poor attempt at insider trading, of the retail-esque variety, depending on the broker the commission on 800m shares of the underlying could be up to $100m (I sh*t you not!)   I checked with a wirehouse broker, and the commission on the options trades would likely have been less than half that.  Using the same hypothetical offender, would it be that hard to believe said would-be insider trader may have been more concerned about commission versus expected profits?

I don&#039;t necessarily disagree with your line(s) of reasoning, just saying you could apply the same Occam&#039;s Razor type thinking to the alternative explanation, as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While hardly an expert here, methinks we should consider commissions here.  If this were some piss-poor attempt at insider trading, of the retail-esque variety, depending on the broker the commission on 800m shares of the underlying could be up to $100m (I sh*t you not!)   I checked with a wirehouse broker, and the commission on the options trades would likely have been less than half that.  Using the same hypothetical offender, would it be that hard to believe said would-be insider trader may have been more concerned about commission versus expected profits?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t necessarily disagree with your line(s) of reasoning, just saying you could apply the same Occam&#8217;s Razor type thinking to the alternative explanation, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5241</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry Chet, you&#039;ve lost me. What are you actually saying? The market maker tried to cancel the trades as if they never happened? Is that what you mean by &quot;bust&quot; them? That seems a bit unfair; I would be annoyed if I had been the buyer. And what&#039;s the relevance to the point I was trying to make?

I would imagine whoever wrote the calls was buying stock against the position, which is, you know, fairly typical, I understand. But considering that even 1:1 hedging would only mean buying 800k common, and, again, 22m were traded, I really don&#039;t get what you are trying to say. En-un-ci-ate, my dear Chet.

Not personally knowing the broker, as you evidently do, or even the institution and the counterparties involved, it would be difficult for me to get &quot;the facts&quot;. And I haven&#039;t stated an opinion, merely posited an alternative, slightly more probable, explanation for something people have commented on. I hardly ever have any opinions, as my friends can attest.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Chet, you&#8217;ve lost me. What are you actually saying? The market maker tried to cancel the trades as if they never happened? Is that what you mean by &#8220;bust&#8221; them? That seems a bit unfair; I would be annoyed if I had been the buyer. And what&#8217;s the relevance to the point I was trying to make?</p>
<p>I would imagine whoever wrote the calls was buying stock against the position, which is, you know, fairly typical, I understand. But considering that even 1:1 hedging would only mean buying 800k common, and, again, 22m were traded, I really don&#8217;t get what you are trying to say. En-un-ci-ate, my dear Chet.</p>
<p>Not personally knowing the broker, as you evidently do, or even the institution and the counterparties involved, it would be difficult for me to get &#8220;the facts&#8221;. And I haven&#8217;t stated an opinion, merely posited an alternative, slightly more probable, explanation for something people have commented on. I hardly ever have any opinions, as my friends can attest.</p>
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		<title>By: Plebian</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5240</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Plebian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5240</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If your cost of capital is 0%, I agree go the stock route. As I am but a humble punter of meager resources, would I not get more action via the option?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your cost of capital is 0%, I agree go the stock route. As I am but a humble punter of meager resources, would I not get more action via the option?</p>
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		<title>By: Chet B.</title>
		<link>http://ultimibarbarorum.com/2009/11/16/1-3-million-lost-in-blatant-but-failed-attempt-at-insider-trading/comment-page-1/#comment-5239</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chet B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ultimibarbarorum.com/?p=538#comment-5239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just so you are aware, the broker that executed the trades on the CBOE tried to bust them the next day.  He crossed the orders with one of his other customers...and once the news of their blantant trades came about, they tried to cover their tracks.  Stock Volume was almost double also...meaning the customer that sold the calls was probably buying stock 1:1 against his short position.  Nice and tidy trade for both until they realized the trades were more than triple the open interest.  Maybe you should get some facts before you state your opinion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just so you are aware, the broker that executed the trades on the CBOE tried to bust them the next day.  He crossed the orders with one of his other customers&#8230;and once the news of their blantant trades came about, they tried to cover their tracks.  Stock Volume was almost double also&#8230;meaning the customer that sold the calls was probably buying stock 1:1 against his short position.  Nice and tidy trade for both until they realized the trades were more than triple the open interest.  Maybe you should get some facts before you state your opinion.</p>
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